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2 points by akkartik 5 days ago | link | parent

Maybe I should clarify that I mean dependency injection but not a dependency injection framework. Automating the injection decisions defeats most of the purpose of DI, I think.




2 points by shader 5 days ago | link

Yes, I suppose "dependency injection" as a concept doesn't actually require anything sophisticated like a framework or IoC containers etc. But the term "dependency injection" sounds to me like it's doing more than just passing in a parameter, and I normally wouldn't expect it to be used unless it meant something more.

I think that's because "injection" is active. It sounds like intrusively making some code use a different dependency without its explicit cooperation. Passing parameters to a function isn't really "injecting"; it's just normal operation.

> Automating the injection decisions defeats most of the purpose of DI, I think.

I don't know about "automated" decisions, but the value of something like "injection" to me seems that you could avoid explicitly mentioning the dependencies at intermediate layers of code, and only reference them at the entry points and where they are used. The way your code works, every function that depends on anything that could call 'print has to have a screen in its parameter line. For Mu, that may be a reasonable design decision; you want to keep things transparent and obvious every step of the way, and don't want to add any more complexity to the language than necessary. However, I think there is a case to be made for something like dynamic variables to improve composability in a higher-level context. That's a discussion for a different language (like the one I'm designing, which gets around the various problems of scoping by making almost everything static anyway).

This is probably talking past your point, but I'm trying to argue that there might be value in some degree of DI beyond parameterizing functions. I have not necessarily justified "automation", and since I don't have a good definition for that anyway, I don't think I'll try.

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2 points by akkartik 5 days ago | link

That makes sense. I think my criticism is really for Guice, which has the effect of making Java a dynamically typed language that can throw type errors at run-time. But if you start out with a dynamic language like Lisp, dynamically-scoped variables are much more acceptable.

Regarding the term "injection", I'm following https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_injection. It feels like a marketing term, but now we're stuck with it.

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2 points by shader 2 days ago | link

Why are runtime type errors acceptable in Lisp but not in Java? Or was there some other reason for dynamically-scoped variables to be acceptable in Lisp?

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2 points by akkartik 2 days ago | link

This side is definitely not absolutist. In my opinion, Java started out encouraging people to rely on the compiler for type errors. We got used to refactoring in the IDE, and if nothing was red we expect no type errors.

With a dynamic language you never start out relying on the compiler as a crutch.

This argument isn't about anything directly technical about the respective compilers, just the pragmatic thought patterns I've observed..

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